Actor Franz Rogowski on “Passages”: The sex scenes were not difficult, once you get intimate with someone

Ira Sachs’s latest dissertation is about love, sex and self-destruction. Transitions – a Sundance and Berlinale darling – was in the news for its NC-17 rating from the Motion Picture Association for graphic sex scenes.

But actor Franz Rogowski, who plays Thomas, who ended his 15-year marriage to British artist Martin (Ben Whishaw) over an affair with teacher Agatha (Adele Exarchopoulos), says the sex scenes aren’t the most challenging.

Speaking via video call from London on what he describes as a sunny day, the 37-year-old actor says: “You want something fake to be believable. Sex scenes are easier because as soon as you become intimate with someone, your neural network, senses, and biological system react intuitively. You can rely on your body much more than if it were a line. If you have to say, ‘My mother died last year,’ that is a constructed reality that needs to be brought into your body.”

Because dancing was a more difficult challenge than sex scenes.

According to Franz, the hardest part of playing Thomas wasn’t the sex or the fact that Thomas isn’t very attractive, it was the dancing! “Dancing at first, in a club, and then in a cafe, seemed scary to me. People think I’m a dancer because I worked as an artist and choreographer for eight years. But in reality, I’m the guy who leaves the party after 10 minutes!”

Sachs apparently wrote Thomas for Franz. “I did not know that. If I did, it would be scary. I watched his films because I was not familiar with his work; I love his films, they are personal and objective at the same time.”

Making space for others to shine

Sachs, Franz says, loves every aspect of filmmaking. “He loves editing, the camera and the actors… It’s not like one aspect, like the actor or the camera, is in the foreground while the others try to serve and support. The different layers coexist in a unique, human way.”

Describing Sachs as helpful, empathetic and compassionate, Franz says, “He wants you to feel seen, and he does see you. The fact that he chose you means that you don’t have to become anything or be anything more than you are. You just have to brace yourself on set and be curious and explore.”

This freedom, says Franz, is a wonderful feeling. “We all felt it from the very beginning – Ben, Adele, myself and the crew. Here is a very experienced director trying to create a space for others to shine. He’s a wonderful person to spend time with.”

Unknown hierarchy

Directors, Franz comments, often create a hierarchy. “They set up systems of reward and punishment, fear or despair, without even knowing it. Ira on the set is something between a colleague, friend and father.”

Thomas, Franz’s character Transitions, is the director. Sachs shared links including James Cagney, Luchino Visconti. Innocentand German films by Fassbender. In creating Thomas, Sachs was looking for a non-heroic character.

“We are used to the main character leading us by the hand to a better future or solution to a problem. This passage is difficult to read and causes a lot of chaos. It’s not easy to morally understand which side he’s on.”

Curiosity of Chaos

“Tomas is easy to judge,” says Franz. “This is a terrible person, terrible behavior. Why should I watch him do these things? That was our starting point, a point of view based not on morality or ideas of good and evil, but rather on curiosity about the chaos between three adults.”

When Franz read the script, he wondered how he was going to rationalize Thomas. “He is selfish, aggressive and does all sorts of things that are hard to justify. However, relationships make things come alive and differentiate them from pure dialogue on paper.”

Not on paper

Touching each other and exchanging glances that weren’t there on paper, Frantz said the actors soon realized Thomas was looking for similar things. “He is also looking for love, intimacy and tenderness. He is under a lot of pressure. Just because he has a hard time interacting with people and interacting with them doesn’t mean he wants to hurt people.”

Once Franz realized this, it became much easier to let Thomas do what he did. “Even if you kill someone, it’s much more interesting to find the reason why the person at that moment thinks that killing is the best solution.”

Performative and naturalistic

Working with Whishaw, Franz says, was a wonderful experience. “I don’t know of any other actor who can incorporate so many micro-gestures into one line without turning into pantomime. It is incredibly performative and naturalistic. He is transparent and now a friend. It’s rare that you’re happy when most of the actors are busy at work. Not so with Ben.

TransitionsThe costumes, from Thomas’s black mesh shirt and sheer dragon-print top to Wishaw’s silky red robe, were as big a hit as the proverbial two-minute kiss. “The costume 100% reflects the character. It’s a powerful tool, and in this case it’s well chosen.”

Costume rehearsals in Khadija Zeggai’s designer apartment were personal, according to Franz. “Ira was curious to see what we could do. Although he is not a fashionista, he wanted the costumes to work, he needed someone else to create the images, and we could embody and perform in these clothes.”

Natural o.

“Everything came together during rehearsals,” says Franz. “We undressed in front of each other. We were in our underwear talking about our characters, and that set the tone for the next six weeks.”

Claiming that he would like to exist only in creations on the screen, Franz understands that this is impossible. TransitionsFranz says it’s a love story between Thomas, Martin and Adele. “History is simply a narrative through time and space that creates the illusion of evolution. Probably everything always spins in circles until it floats. In cinema, we love the illusion of linearity. In different stories, we see three people in need of love who cope with their loneliness in different ways. What drives them, what drives all of us, even you and me in this interview, is love. It’s a little corny, but that’s what I think.” (smiles)

Passages streams on MUBI from October 6